This was a lot of fun to read. I agree that marriage, especially in our culture at this time, makes a whole lot more sense as a vow before God than as something validated by the state.
I really wanted children at my wedding too. Children are what result from weddings-- seems sort of silly to exclude them.
I should also add that there are TWO instances over the course of my marriage where I have served spoiled meat from the freezer to my family. I got food poisoning from the second one (thankfully I was the only one!).
I think I'm the only one that has ever gotten sick from spoiled food I'd served, too (normally I don't get sick). I feel like that's appropriate haha! I'm glad you enjoyed reading this! And yes -- it seems soooo silly to exclude marriage. But then a lot of people don't want kids even after marriage, so maybe that's a part of it?
I honestly lack the proper words to express the fullness of what an experience reading this was. But I am feeling an honestly immeasurable joy. And from the bottom of my often too cynical heart - I humbly and most sincerely thank you both for sharing your journey with us. Bless you both all the days.
I'm right there with Jay. I've fallen short of my hopes in the area of relationships, yet I do still remain hopeful that I'll someday find the woman I'll spend my life with, particularly when I read stories like yours. Though I only know of you and Andy what I've read from your respective writings, what I've seen the two of you write about the other reminds me of two real-life friends, who have been living and homesteading together for twelve years now; I've often said of them that I've never met two people more suited for each other. I wish you both all the joy and love you can handle.
"To be safe I asked Andy what he wanted. He said, 'I want to marry a woman, not some twelve-year old Afghan bride!'”
Haha. Bless him for that.
(Interesting side note: I read your post right before going to bed. I ended up having a very vivid dream of a conversation with Andy. The two of us were sat in oversized wooden chairs across from each other in surroundings that looked much like the photos he posts, talking about our respective travels around the country and, briefly, before waking, about you. It was a short conversation in my dream. Perhaps it's still going on in more celestial realms.)
Does it bother you that church considers your marriage invalid and therefore you are committing mortal sin on a regular basis? Not ment to be a sinide comment. My marriage to a Jewish man is also considered invalid and can't be convalidaded.
No, because their stance on this has changed drastically over the years and this is a fairly modern view on their part. Also depends on the priest who you speak with. Same with being married to someone of another faith -- you can get a convalidated marriage for a "marriage of cults". Also there are plenty of Catholic couples who don't validate their marriage until like twenty years in. Marriage is clearly not a bureaucratic thing, and never was for most of history until like the twentieth century. I think it bothered my husband more than it did me, but at the end of the day marriage isn't meant to be a stack of paperwork you have to work your way through. When it becomes that, it loses meaning.
Ha, I completely agree. My husband and I had decided that we were married at year before our wedding. And then we got married a second time bc of immigration reasons.
I imagine you could receive a dispensation from the local bishop to validate the marriage in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church? I do not believe you personally would be required to convert.
I would argue that it is not a matter of ‘bureaucracy’ regarding the Roman Catholic Church, but rather a matter of Sacraments, which is about a serious as it gets in Catholic circles. (I say this as one who is not Roman Catholic).
I could receive a dispensation religiously, but at this point I want to be Catholic, I just haven't had a chance to convert due to the nature of our travels. However, the difficult thing for us was me not having a social security number and not wanting to get a marriage license (I don't have one for religious and traditional reasons), and that has made it trickier to find a priest who is willing to work with us on that. However, we're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel!!
I loved reading this! I hope you write more on the subject of the emphasis on virginity in fundie cultures and the utter lack of education on what a healthy sexual relationship looks like.
We also had children at our wedding (11 years ago) and it was wonderful.
I generally disagree with both the purity culture and the anti-purity culture people both on this, so I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on it!
Wow! This was long but I wouldn’t want it any shorter. I love your writing and your thoughts! Beautiful. I love that you had a quiet married winter together!!
This was a long post with so many interesting thoughts and ideas. Thank you for sharing it all and for talking about the story of your wedding and marriage! It's truly beautiful in many ways.
What really stood out to me, though, since I've been thinking about the way hospitality ought to function, is this section: "They do not understand the basic importance of most ancient cultures: you accept the food or drink put before you with no questions asked, and you do so no matter the consequences. This is faith. This is how we become unified with humanity."
That's very insightful and puts a cap on some things I've been observing! I'll have to mull it a while before I can put my thoughts into words, but this gives me a good direction.
Keturah, your June wedding was truly a gift to those who attended! I came across a fascinating part in the book The Rivers North of the Future where Ivan Illich discussed the 'criminalization of sin' by the church. Before this time there were no church regulations surrounding marriage either... although of course it's sacred nature was understood. He proposes that we (western culture) keep trying to institute laws/regulations/institutions to solve the problems of sin. Of course, we only change the way the sin is expressed but never get at the root problem. I think you and Andy would both like Ivan Illich's thinking as he is an unconventional -- even anarchic -- Catholic.
I had to laugh at the anecdote about your first married meal, because ours was a similar flop, at a Subway off the highway after we also had to get legally married before our wedding because of immigration bureaucracy. It hasn't impacted the quality of our marriage! Now back to read the rest...
Almost everything you write is so beautiful, it makes me cry. I love how educated you are and your ability to love despite all invitations to hate. I wished I could have been at your wedding. I was in South Africa on my ministry. But one day I will meet you guys. Sending the light to you two , always.
This was a wonderful read. I noticed I recognized some of your attendees at the second wedding. We meet at the same church on Sundays. I love tiny connections like that.
Beautiful. It took me most of the day to read, as I kept getting called away to attend to the things that make up life, but I kept returning until I finished it. Thank you so much for sharing this intimate story with us. Much love and blessings for both of your futures together.
My buzzed brain has only allowed me to get half way through this piece. I have to write this now as I think it. You guys & u especially k (since it’s ur voice) r thoughtful, unique, grounded & beautiful. I hope to meet u2 IRL someday. Be well. 😍
This was beautiful. I was so moved by the layers and depth of the simple, sweet beauty of your prose and the sharp, concise way you shared your most deeply held beliefs. Congratulations to you both, I’ll be praying regularly for the health and longevity of your marriage.
This was a lot of fun to read. I agree that marriage, especially in our culture at this time, makes a whole lot more sense as a vow before God than as something validated by the state.
I really wanted children at my wedding too. Children are what result from weddings-- seems sort of silly to exclude them.
I should also add that there are TWO instances over the course of my marriage where I have served spoiled meat from the freezer to my family. I got food poisoning from the second one (thankfully I was the only one!).
I think I'm the only one that has ever gotten sick from spoiled food I'd served, too (normally I don't get sick). I feel like that's appropriate haha! I'm glad you enjoyed reading this! And yes -- it seems soooo silly to exclude marriage. But then a lot of people don't want kids even after marriage, so maybe that's a part of it?
I enjoyed this so much! Thank you for sharing! Happlly married 32 years; may God richly bless you two.
I honestly lack the proper words to express the fullness of what an experience reading this was. But I am feeling an honestly immeasurable joy. And from the bottom of my often too cynical heart - I humbly and most sincerely thank you both for sharing your journey with us. Bless you both all the days.
Thank you! I too have had my season of cynicism -- I'm glad we could share some of our joy with you!
I'm right there with Jay. I've fallen short of my hopes in the area of relationships, yet I do still remain hopeful that I'll someday find the woman I'll spend my life with, particularly when I read stories like yours. Though I only know of you and Andy what I've read from your respective writings, what I've seen the two of you write about the other reminds me of two real-life friends, who have been living and homesteading together for twelve years now; I've often said of them that I've never met two people more suited for each other. I wish you both all the joy and love you can handle.
"To be safe I asked Andy what he wanted. He said, 'I want to marry a woman, not some twelve-year old Afghan bride!'”
Haha. Bless him for that.
(Interesting side note: I read your post right before going to bed. I ended up having a very vivid dream of a conversation with Andy. The two of us were sat in oversized wooden chairs across from each other in surroundings that looked much like the photos he posts, talking about our respective travels around the country and, briefly, before waking, about you. It was a short conversation in my dream. Perhaps it's still going on in more celestial realms.)
It seems like the sort of dream that could happen — Andy loves sitting on the front porch sharing a cigar with a friend!
That was beautiful, I love how authentic your voice is.
What does your husband being catholic think about not being married in a catholic church?
We still plan to convalidate our marriage in the Church once I convert to Catholicism!
Does it bother you that church considers your marriage invalid and therefore you are committing mortal sin on a regular basis? Not ment to be a sinide comment. My marriage to a Jewish man is also considered invalid and can't be convalidaded.
No, because their stance on this has changed drastically over the years and this is a fairly modern view on their part. Also depends on the priest who you speak with. Same with being married to someone of another faith -- you can get a convalidated marriage for a "marriage of cults". Also there are plenty of Catholic couples who don't validate their marriage until like twenty years in. Marriage is clearly not a bureaucratic thing, and never was for most of history until like the twentieth century. I think it bothered my husband more than it did me, but at the end of the day marriage isn't meant to be a stack of paperwork you have to work your way through. When it becomes that, it loses meaning.
Ha, I completely agree. My husband and I had decided that we were married at year before our wedding. And then we got married a second time bc of immigration reasons.
I honestly see nothing wrong with having many marriages to one person. We'll probably end up doing three or four by the time it's all said and done!!
I imagine you could receive a dispensation from the local bishop to validate the marriage in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church? I do not believe you personally would be required to convert.
I would argue that it is not a matter of ‘bureaucracy’ regarding the Roman Catholic Church, but rather a matter of Sacraments, which is about a serious as it gets in Catholic circles. (I say this as one who is not Roman Catholic).
I could receive a dispensation religiously, but at this point I want to be Catholic, I just haven't had a chance to convert due to the nature of our travels. However, the difficult thing for us was me not having a social security number and not wanting to get a marriage license (I don't have one for religious and traditional reasons), and that has made it trickier to find a priest who is willing to work with us on that. However, we're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel!!
Ahh I see. May God bless you on your pilgrimage, temporal and spiritual.
I loved reading this! I hope you write more on the subject of the emphasis on virginity in fundie cultures and the utter lack of education on what a healthy sexual relationship looks like.
We also had children at our wedding (11 years ago) and it was wonderful.
I really want to write more on that subject, once I've gathered my feelings and thoughts on it! Thank you for reading!!
I generally disagree with both the purity culture and the anti-purity culture people both on this, so I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on it!
Wow! This was long but I wouldn’t want it any shorter. I love your writing and your thoughts! Beautiful. I love that you had a quiet married winter together!!
It is soooo long! But some things just can't be shorter! Thank you!!!! And yes, I will always look back on that winter with profound bliss.
This was a long post with so many interesting thoughts and ideas. Thank you for sharing it all and for talking about the story of your wedding and marriage! It's truly beautiful in many ways.
What really stood out to me, though, since I've been thinking about the way hospitality ought to function, is this section: "They do not understand the basic importance of most ancient cultures: you accept the food or drink put before you with no questions asked, and you do so no matter the consequences. This is faith. This is how we become unified with humanity."
That's very insightful and puts a cap on some things I've been observing! I'll have to mull it a while before I can put my thoughts into words, but this gives me a good direction.
I’m glad that section stood out to you — I feel like it’s the backbone of an essay I have coming out in late January on shaving and anorexia
Keturah, your June wedding was truly a gift to those who attended! I came across a fascinating part in the book The Rivers North of the Future where Ivan Illich discussed the 'criminalization of sin' by the church. Before this time there were no church regulations surrounding marriage either... although of course it's sacred nature was understood. He proposes that we (western culture) keep trying to institute laws/regulations/institutions to solve the problems of sin. Of course, we only change the way the sin is expressed but never get at the root problem. I think you and Andy would both like Ivan Illich's thinking as he is an unconventional -- even anarchic -- Catholic.
with Love, Clara
Ohh, thank you for the recommendation, Clara. I look forward to acquiring a copy and reading it!
I had to laugh at the anecdote about your first married meal, because ours was a similar flop, at a Subway off the highway after we also had to get legally married before our wedding because of immigration bureaucracy. It hasn't impacted the quality of our marriage! Now back to read the rest...
haha! Maybe it's part of the hazing process!
This is raw, beautiful, painful, joyful, spiritually deep, and hoping - all in one.
So good. Thanks for sharing it - the silk and pearls as well as the spoiled meat.
Silk, Pearls, and Spoiled Meat would've made a great title haha!
Almost everything you write is so beautiful, it makes me cry. I love how educated you are and your ability to love despite all invitations to hate. I wished I could have been at your wedding. I was in South Africa on my ministry. But one day I will meet you guys. Sending the light to you two , always.
This was a wonderful read. I noticed I recognized some of your attendees at the second wedding. We meet at the same church on Sundays. I love tiny connections like that.
ohh that's soo cool! Perhaps we'll visit that church at some point and meet!
Beautiful! I love this!
Beautiful. It took me most of the day to read, as I kept getting called away to attend to the things that make up life, but I kept returning until I finished it. Thank you so much for sharing this intimate story with us. Much love and blessings for both of your futures together.
My buzzed brain has only allowed me to get half way through this piece. I have to write this now as I think it. You guys & u especially k (since it’s ur voice) r thoughtful, unique, grounded & beautiful. I hope to meet u2 IRL someday. Be well. 😍
Yes, it's a tad longer than what I usually write -- the pictures are a great substitute for the words though! Thank you for the kind words !
This was beautiful. I was so moved by the layers and depth of the simple, sweet beauty of your prose and the sharp, concise way you shared your most deeply held beliefs. Congratulations to you both, I’ll be praying regularly for the health and longevity of your marriage.
thank you sooo much!
I wanted to share my post on child-inclusive weddings!
https://open.substack.com/pub/emilynell/p/begin-as-you-mean-to-continue?r=aptxs&utm_medium=ios